tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post115633843597714589..comments2024-02-23T12:31:13.087+02:00Comments on something something: Grappling with Jostein GaarderLizahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15609930323114894886noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-89438080666592291282006-12-23T02:43:00.000+02:002006-12-23T02:43:00.000+02:00I think Gaarder simply put into words what most of...I think Gaarder simply put into words what most of the civilised world has been feeling for the past forty years. And good luck to him.<br /><br />Rami - the Nobel prizes are hosted by Sweden, not Norway. I assume evyone else was too busy shrieking about anti-semitism (read: failure to adopt the approriate attitude of bowed head when faced with Israeli ethnic cleansing in the Occupied TerritoriesRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04181616393829854686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156931156755401542006-08-30T12:45:00.000+03:002006-08-30T12:45:00.000+03:00Dear Liza..I was earlier working hard on arranging...Dear Liza..<BR/><BR/>I was earlier working hard on arranging a 'peace journalism' conference, bringing arab and israeli journalists to the same hall to discuss how to work together for peace...<BR/><BR/>The problem was, the location.. if I did this in an arab country, it will be hugely critisized and huge security measures will have to take place, as well as alot of arabs will not show up.. <BR/>Rami https://www.blogger.com/profile/00999447511885777356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156692730535283482006-08-27T18:32:00.000+03:002006-08-27T18:32:00.000+03:00First of all, these comments have made for a very ...First of all, these comments have made for a very interesting read. I purposely held off commenting until now because I want to see where things went. I was actually hoping to hear from more people who don't have such a vested interest in Israel, but what can you do? Hopefully, more people will weigh in here.<BR/><BR/>And, despite some of the differing opinions (and a few questionable comments), Lizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609930323114894886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156683232088049522006-08-27T15:53:00.000+03:002006-08-27T15:53:00.000+03:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Lizahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15609930323114894886noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156489342216661452006-08-25T10:02:00.000+03:002006-08-25T10:02:00.000+03:00Lisa, I hear what you said but don't find it to be...Lisa, <BR/><BR/>I hear what you said but don't find it to be a good comparison of what happened here.<BR/><BR/>Lisoosh, <BR/><BR/>I think you have made some excellent points and agree whole-heartedly that Gaarder's article is negative and can be used by anti-semites as fuel for the fire, so to speak. I still don't think he is an anti-semite, but I do agree that his writing left me with the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156440709314199592006-08-24T20:31:00.000+03:002006-08-24T20:31:00.000+03:00And it also frustrates me that the right uses the ...And it also frustrates me that the right uses the label of anti semitism too frequently when people critisize Israel so that when the label is warrented, people don't take it seriously enough.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I'm going away now. Off to Costco so I can't write anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156440467065745282006-08-24T20:27:00.000+03:002006-08-24T20:27:00.000+03:00I think the Professor Fure piece (hardly supportiv...I think the Professor Fure piece (hardly supportive of Israels actions in Lebanon) puts it pretty well:<BR/><BR/>"With all this in mind, Fure cannot assess the Gaarder article as anything but negative.<BR/><BR/>"He describes Christian Europe as the bearer of humanism. But is he unaware of the catastrophes Christian Europe has brought upon itself and the world, such as crusades, slavery, Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156440007670217342006-08-24T20:20:00.000+03:002006-08-24T20:20:00.000+03:00Rami - I should point out that I don't think anyon...Rami - I should point out that I don't think anyone is actually angry with Norway. Just with this author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156439838374011972006-08-24T20:17:00.000+03:002006-08-24T20:17:00.000+03:00Hi nrg,I think that if I called a black person a n...Hi nrg,<BR/><BR/>I think that if I called a black person a nigger he would have the right to tell me he was offended. And if I then told him that I hadn't meant to be racist, but was just using a term I'd heard in hip hop songs, he would be perfectly within his rights to tell me that I simply was not aware of my own racism. And if I then refused to acknowlege that I had indeed said something Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156439812222008472006-08-24T20:16:00.000+03:002006-08-24T20:16:00.000+03:00nrg - Thanks for the link. I haven't had time to r...nrg - Thanks for the link. I haven't had time to read all of it but I did read one of Gaarders explanations.<BR/>As one of Lisa's (hopefully) "intelligent, secular, well-educated, well-travelled Jews" who was obviously offended by this article, one of the reasons I was so offended was because there was so much religion in it, especially common misconceptions used typically by the Orthodox ChurchAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156439026016247542006-08-24T20:03:00.000+03:002006-08-24T20:03:00.000+03:00I would like to point out one thing for now... i w...I would like to point out one thing for now... i will come back later for an extended reply.<BR/><BR/>Although norway is a NATO country and all that, it still a world leader in promoting peace.<BR/><BR/>Universities in norway have many specialisations in conflict resolution, peace-building..etc. <BR/><BR/>Besides hosting the noble peace prize, the gov't of norway always tries to broker peace Rami https://www.blogger.com/profile/00999447511885777356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156430059527349162006-08-24T17:34:00.000+03:002006-08-24T17:34:00.000+03:00Lisa, I think you are making an unfair generalizat...Lisa, <BR/><BR/>I think you are making an unfair generalization here. <BR/><BR/>I don't think that Gaarder's defenders have any obligation to apologize for what he wrote or the fact that he has offended people. That is Gaarder's job. And he has apologized. That doesn't excuse the fact that his article was a horribly written piece of work that combined what I think was a valid criticism of the Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156428210147597942006-08-24T17:03:00.000+03:002006-08-24T17:03:00.000+03:00You know, I could deconstruct this article and sho...You know, I could deconstruct this article and show, point by point, why it is pure, unadulterated anti-semitism. But, like Lisoosh, I simply do not have the energy. <BR/><BR/>What I do find quite interesting, though, is that a whole lot of intelligent, secular, well-educated, well-traveled Jews are saying that they find this article offensive and anti-semitic. But instead of apologizing for Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156428031556680642006-08-24T17:00:00.000+03:002006-08-24T17:00:00.000+03:00Lisoosh, This link http://aftenposten.by.com/nyhet...Lisoosh, <BR/><BR/>This link http://aftenposten.by.com/nyheter.asp?q4=english&c4=@section&qu=Gaarder should hopefully get you to all the articles that have been translated to english in aftenposten. I wish I could find the time to translate the comment section of one article. It was a huge range of opinions from people saying Gaarder's use of the royal WE is a sign of some superiority complex Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156426682364081662006-08-24T16:38:00.000+03:002006-08-24T16:38:00.000+03:00nrg - exactly what has the response been in Norway...nrg - exactly what has the response been in Norway?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156424959516208142006-08-24T16:09:00.000+03:002006-08-24T16:09:00.000+03:00I think that was what angered me the most in his a...I think that was what angered me the most in his article. He seemed to be speaking on behalf of some larger group, some self-appointed greater good. Not only was he offensive, but he seemed too cowardly to just write "I". <BR/><BR/>Liza, you have gotten me on a kick, now I've been rereading the norwegian back and forth on this from Aftenposten...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156423925688907942006-08-24T15:52:00.000+03:002006-08-24T15:52:00.000+03:00His use of the term "we" is so inappropriate. Not...His use of the term "we" is so inappropriate. Not in my name, brother!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156419612223064612006-08-24T14:40:00.000+03:002006-08-24T14:40:00.000+03:00nomimally challenged: he should have thought of a...nomimally challenged: he should have thought of a great many things before publishing that article... I think there is wide-spread agreement on that. I do disagree with your last sentence, though. There is no logical reason why individuals who are angry about his generalizations should then make their own generalizations in return, is there? I would think that those who take issue with his Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156417006822255512006-08-24T13:56:00.000+03:002006-08-24T13:56:00.000+03:00nrgHe should have thought about all that before he...nrg<BR/><BR/>He should have thought about all that before he wrote it. Especially if he wanted to avoid people drawing the same conclusions about his own country.nominally challengedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813003935126340214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156412388643091622006-08-24T12:39:00.000+03:002006-08-24T12:39:00.000+03:00Thanks for the clarification, am not Norwegian, so...Thanks for the clarification, am not Norwegian, so I wasn't personally offended, but I do live here and I didn't get that you were generalizing to show that generalizing was one of the things you disliked about the article. <BR/><BR/>Just shows how quickly words can be interpreted in a way that is very different from how they were meant to be read. I think that Gaarder has experienced this to anAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156410223203795842006-08-24T12:03:00.000+03:002006-08-24T12:03:00.000+03:00nrg,I have nothing against Norway or Norwegians. ...nrg,<BR/><BR/>I have nothing against Norway or Norwegians. I was simply trying to point out the stupidity of generalizing. I mustn't have employed enough sarcasm :) (The "Do we recognize Norway?" question was supposed to have been funny ... well, it was about 3:00 am here when I wrote it ...) Apologies, especially if I offended you. <BR/><BR/>I do, however, object to Gaarder's article, nominally challengedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813003935126340214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156406356883179442006-08-24T10:59:00.000+03:002006-08-24T10:59:00.000+03:00Liza, Do you really want me to start on this? Shou...Liza, Do you really want me to start on this? Should I just copy and paste yesterday's chat? <BR/>Oh, I don't know that I have the energy... <BR/><BR/>And, it was the Danes who lasted only hours in WWII, the norwegians fought for days and lost, but had one of the most active resistance movements on record throughout the occupation. Not bad for a bunch of farmers and fishermen in an incredibly Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156380825467888862006-08-24T03:53:00.000+03:002006-08-24T03:53:00.000+03:00Norway? Norway? Isn't that that bit of fjord-fille...Norway? Norway? Isn't that that bit of fjord-filled ice that the Danes couldn't be bothered keeping after their last war with Sweden (some 200 years ago)? Wasn't that the country that just sort let the Nazis in, in WWII, because they couldn't be bothered fighting them?<BR/>Do we recognize them?<BR/>(scratches head) ...nominally challengedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11813003935126340214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156371977288316852006-08-24T01:26:00.000+03:002006-08-24T01:26:00.000+03:00Anon - Most of the inaccuracies in the authors pie...Anon - <BR/><BR/>Most of the inaccuracies in the authors piece are common misconceptions among Orthodox Christians that their church has been propagating for centuries.<BR/>As to Israel, you should find out a lot more about it, it is much more varied than you seem to imagine. About 70% of the country is secular in varying degrees (probably less than in Scandinavia) but the political system is oneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-1156361803525813642006-08-23T22:36:00.000+03:002006-08-23T22:36:00.000+03:00I've read this before. And I felt physically ill.I've read this before. And I felt physically ill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com