tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post5265879795222409549..comments2024-02-23T12:31:13.087+02:00Comments on something something: Stop Being Verbal Vegetarians!Lizahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15609930323114894886noreply@blogger.comBlogger88125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-31211626997600237902006-12-29T23:14:00.000+02:002006-12-29T23:14:00.000+02:00Nidra,
First I'd like to complement you on these ...Nidra,<br /><br />First I'd like to complement you on these lines:<br />"And we can’t let it be the target for a rerun of that sick scenario. We did not deserve the death camps, we do not deserve the inhuman bombers"<br /><br />Which were really quite beautiful.<br /><br />However, I almost didn't get there after reading this:<br /><br />"So it occurs to me that most of the people trashing the lisooshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324023721479597685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-74682486107551507412006-12-29T20:18:00.000+02:002006-12-29T20:18:00.000+02:00[Having taken another look at the thread…]
Where ...[Having taken another look at the thread…]<br /><br />Where does the disgust come from? Liza writes about the “bleak outlook” and “negative attitudes” of Conference speakers determined to portray Israel as “innocent victim.” She is horrified by Manfred Gerstenfeld who refers to the Palestinians as “the enemy.” She is nauseated by “utterly maddening…ignorant” speakers who felt there was no hope Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-52738748765471014242006-12-29T17:59:00.000+02:002006-12-29T17:59:00.000+02:00[This was my first reaction to the comments above....[This was my first reaction to the comments above...communicated directly to Richard Landes who suggested I post it here. Now I have re-read a good part of the thread and will come back, with your permission, in detail.<br />PS. It's Stephanie (not Melanie)<br />Gutmann ]<br /><br />Last night I listened to Aussie Dave's podcast on the Conference, and this morning I checked out les tireurs aux Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-3074236536380296792006-12-28T21:30:00.000+02:002006-12-28T21:30:00.000+02:00All of you seem to be missing the point. All that ...All of you seem to be missing the point. All that matters to the media is happening in the lobby of the American Colony Hotel.<br /><br />Read Melanie Gutmann's The Other War (2005).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-65913100988322026922006-12-28T16:24:00.000+02:002006-12-28T16:24:00.000+02:00colorless.blue.ideas
FYI, I'm Jewish and Israeli...colorless.blue.ideas <br /><br />FYI, I'm Jewish and Israeli and am fine with the sentence for Jonathon Pollard. What he did was for Israel, that he got caught in the US and punished according to its laws is just the way things go.<br />I tend to think that the people who have made him a cause celebre actually damage Israels credibility.lisooshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324023721479597685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-62083275031743570672006-12-28T06:29:00.000+02:002006-12-28T06:29:00.000+02:00IRT Don Radlauer's polite comment:
Thank you for ...IRT Don Radlauer's polite comment:<br /><br />Thank you for your note. I'm having trouble with blogspot's communications with my browser, so it may take awhile to get your email address. I may have to try another browser. <br /><br />I appreciate the goal of seeking to publish just the (comparatively) verifiable and non-contentious facts. I think it is a good one. What I see as a problem in Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-58995742515426250932006-12-27T22:45:00.000+02:002006-12-27T22:45:00.000+02:00Judith -
I'm a pussycat in real life. :-)
I'm in t...Judith -<br />I'm a pussycat in real life. :-)<br />I'm in the States at the moment, won't be in Israel until the summer.<br />If you are ever in the tri-state area I will take you up on it though.lisooshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324023721479597685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-42864382421110181522006-12-27T20:41:00.000+02:002006-12-27T20:41:00.000+02:00To colorless.blue.ideas:
Contact me offline (you ...To colorless.blue.ideas:<br /><br />Contact me offline (you can find my email address at my blog, under "More Stuff / Get in touch") to discuss funding issues - not that I have a number available off the top of my head, but I can consult with my colleagues about it.<br /><br />Early in the course of the study, we decided to adopt a strictly physical criterion for determining responsibility for Don Radlauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913661475277505087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-79084220069595486092006-12-27T19:49:00.000+02:002006-12-27T19:49:00.000+02:00Thanks for the interesting discussion.
I'm in th...Thanks for the interesting discussion. <br /><br />I'm in the process of reading the 2002 study ("An Engineered Tragedy" (AET)), which I greatly appreciate. Funding lack is mentioned as a reason for not updating the study (or keeping a database). How much funding would be required? Is there any other organization which keeps track of such data? <br /><br />Keeping in mind that I'm still Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-75132269653205555852006-12-27T19:11:00.000+02:002006-12-27T19:11:00.000+02:00"I do believe that TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for my ow..."I do believe that TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for my own actions makes me a GROWN UP. I do believe that the ability to look with clear eyes at a situation is the only way that situation can be honestly resolved."<br /><br />I do too. We seem to disagree on what taking responsibility entails, also on what the situation really is.<br /><br />i will be in Israel till Jan 4, would love to meet. A neutral Judithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03919681605602568664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-18889028412584470412006-12-27T16:34:00.000+02:002006-12-27T16:34:00.000+02:00Mr. Landes,
A fantastic and generous suggestion.
...Mr. Landes,<br /><br />A fantastic and generous suggestion.<br />Wish I could make it, unavailable till June.<br /><br />Hope you guys can organize a constructive meeting.lisooshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324023721479597685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-29196319701051196532006-12-27T16:30:00.000+02:002006-12-27T16:30:00.000+02:00To M. Simon:
I think you're completely misunderst...To M. Simon:<br /><br />I think you're completely misunderstanding the strategic implications of noncombatant Palestinian fatalities in the "Intifada". The argument that Israel should conduct itself differently in relation to the Palestinians is not only a moral one, but also a matter of sound strategy.<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br /><i>the Palis want to surround their fighters with kids some Don Radlauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913661475277505087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-51199605700410036882006-12-27T12:16:00.000+02:002006-12-27T12:16:00.000+02:00Another good question to ask is why is Ahmedinijad...Another good question to ask is why is Ahmedinijad villified for denying the Holocaust, yet Abbas, who has clearly done the same and never renounced his claims, is hailed as a moderate? Is it cognitive dissonance or denial?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-39652645631096003252006-12-27T10:24:00.000+02:002006-12-27T10:24:00.000+02:00don,
The people you are trying to reach are so fu...don,<br /><br />The people you are trying to reach are so full of colonial guilt that changing their attitudes is going to be a very hard slog. Two or three generations at least.<br /><br />These are the folks who acquiese in the Islamic take over in Europe.<br /><br />Europe is primed for a new genocide. Except the Euro left think they are bringing peace by avoiding war. It has been tried beforeM. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-48552838738772248802006-12-27T10:08:00.000+02:002006-12-27T10:08:00.000+02:00Don I know how to fix the problem.
Take away the ...Don I know how to fix the problem.<br /><br />Take away the Israeli soldier's rifles and give them rocks.<br /><br />Israel's problem is not bad hasbara. It is bad government.<br /><br />A government that has lost its nerve.<br /><br />Olmert is defeated. He is tired of fighting. If that is what the Jews of Israel want - so be it.M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-85390075233535857152006-12-27T09:57:00.000+02:002006-12-27T09:57:00.000+02:00Don Radlauer,
Just because the Palestinians are f...Don Radlauer,<br /><br />Just because the Palestinians are fighting under a disadvantage is no reason to avoid killing them.<br /><br />If they would rather not be killed the easiest way is to stop fighting.<br /><br />War is an ugly business.<br /><br />BTW human shields are legit collateral damage in war. If the Palis want to surround their fighters with kids some kids are going to get killed. M. Simonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09508934110558197375noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-54606205909148104192006-12-27T07:53:00.000+02:002006-12-27T07:53:00.000+02:00this is too complicated and involved to pursue her...this is too complicated and involved to pursue here. reading DR's remarks, i realize the ways in which my comments can lead to misunderstandings, and way's i've misunderstood others' comments. i think we need to meet and discuss this. is there an interest in a meeting either in tel aviv or jerusalem?<br />i'd be up for a meeting early next week (i leave for europe till late january on thursdayAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-85174613845976470092006-12-26T20:03:00.000+02:002006-12-26T20:03:00.000+02:00Hear hear. Because if Israel's legitimacy is predi...Hear hear. Because if Israel's legitimacy is predicated on the Holocaust and victim status, the moment Israel isn't the biggest victim/underdog, there goes the legitimacy.<br />Israel's existence is also opposed by internationalists, as it mostly was by Communism -- nominally, together with socialism, intenationalist. (Yes, there was that moment in 1947 when the USSR decided to stick a thumb in YoelBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05799351102321248350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-44675838738497701462006-12-26T18:57:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:57:00.000+02:00Judith, you wrote:
It's a measure of how you have...Judith, you wrote:<br /><br /><i>It's a measure of how you have internalized this attitude that you think we started this compulsive attention on our conflict.</i><br /><br />And who are <i>you</i> to say what attitudes <i>I</i> have internalized? As you did with Lisoosh, you seem to be awfully fast to assume that you know what my unstated thoughts are, and to state that I've said things I didn'tDon Radlauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913661475277505087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-91818557729225412842006-12-26T18:34:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:34:00.000+02:00Don, I didn't mean that the rioters have been a ta...Don, I didn't mean that the rioters <i>have been</i> a tactical cover for armed aggression, I meant that that is an omnipresent <i>threat</i> behind every mob, and that the troops must have all options open to them at any given time.<br />I certainly didn't mean that Israeli governments have always been smart; it is also an unfortunate fact that the Israeli government has less leeway for YoelBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05799351102321248350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-54729492211765598222006-12-26T18:31:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:31:00.000+02:00Judith -
'if you criticize yourself enough for you...Judith -<br />'if you criticize yourself enough for your dog sh*tting in the yard your neighbor will stop"<br /><br />As I have time this morning I'll even add more.<br /><br />I don't think that "criticizing myself" or "aplogizing for my actions" will affect anyone elses behaviour.<br /><br />I do believe that TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for my own actions makes me a GROWN UP. I do believe that the lisooshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324023721479597685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-53693227931378336972006-12-26T18:29:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:29:00.000+02:00Okay, Lisoosh. But I was pushing the analogy as fa...Okay, Lisoosh. But I was pushing the analogy as far as I could and just caricaturing attitudes in general, I wasn't describing you in particular (and you are right I have no idea what you think). But I can see where it would come across that way.Judithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03919681605602568664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-91739329177397517752006-12-26T18:23:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:23:00.000+02:00"But if we keep bringing up the subject, if that s..."But if we keep bringing up the subject, if that seems to be all we talk about, then we lose: not only is the neighbor's dog shitting on our lawn, he's also shitting on our desk"<br /><br />They are the ones who keep bringing up the subject, Don. in spite of Israel 21c etc, all most people want to talk about in regard to Israel is "the Occupation" and "the Wall." Dancers can't get their tours Judithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03919681605602568664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-26004032618402189622006-12-26T18:15:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:15:00.000+02:00Judith -
Ok, lets try this again.
"What I don't d...Judith -<br /><br />Ok, lets try this again.<br />"What I don't do, and what I bet you don't do either except with regard to Israel, is to assume that the neighbor letting his dog sh*t in the yard is your fault, that if you criticize yourself enough for your dog sh*tting in the yard your neighbor will stop"<br /><br />You said:<br />a. That in regards to Israel I assume that the violence is "my" lisooshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12324023721479597685noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13482317.post-48852276869790887962006-12-26T18:14:00.000+02:002006-12-26T18:14:00.000+02:00To OnTheLeftCoast:
You asked:
If Israeli troops ...To OnTheLeftCoast:<br /><br />You asked:<br /><br /><i>If Israeli troops aren't permitted to respond with war-fighting means to threats from a mob, won't the mob be used as cover for military attacks on the Israelis?</i><br /><br />You're correct to an extent: although the Palestinians never used riots as a cover for any militarily serious assault on an Israeli position, there is no question thatDon Radlauerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06913661475277505087noreply@blogger.com